A little night discussion upon the nature of god.

Brendhain
Let me tell you about one of the mental simulations that I do. It will extend my explanation about my views/relationship with god. I was just doing this again a moment ago and thought to tell you! As you know I am an Agnostic-Atheist, which means that I ‘think’ and know that I don’t know with 100% certainty that there is no god; but I fully lack any ‘belief’ in a god.
So although I have no belief, my rational mind says that there is always that possibility. So I think about how, if there were a god then what would be My reality. How could I analyse and understand a possible reality where there Was a god. And I have a ‘reality’ I get into (simulate that perspective). And have reached a great understanding of my relationship with that possible god. My view of gods nature and explanations as to why he doesn’t interfere with the world despite its present state of affairs, and all of humans’ time here. I have come to terms with how that reality would be and how things would work. I like playing in that reality and have a very fun understanding with god when I am ‘living in’ that perspective for a while. I tease god a lot but if he is GOD then he must love my sense of humor when I tease him because I am laughing my head off and I never make fun of peoples’ shortcomings. Unless it involves in needless vanity plastic surgery!!! And my GOD doesn’t need such plastic surgery!!
When I am in that perspective then it can be very intellectual with no amount of emotion feeling of his presence, just analysis. I am never angered but I do call him on some if his obvious fuck ups in how he set up the universe in a way in which it causes a great amount of needless suffering. But I intellectual understand why it works that way. It isn’t because of the Free Will argument. The things that lead up to the Jews having the idea of one god is interesting but they brought in the ‘punishment for sins’ concept with the one god because he was angry. Okay, I will stop writing all of my thoughts as they pop into my head!!!!!!

Jyvlo Yipistage
Would you delve a little deeper for me? You said it was a fuck up how the universe is set up in this reality you like to play in due to the great amount of needless suffering and that you intellectually understand why it works this way. What is your intellectual understanding of this?
Brendhain
That will take a little while to condense! Let me think for a while before I reply.
By the way, did you notice I initiated another chat!! You have me well trained!!

Jyvlo Yipistage
I’m not trying to train you! But I do like that you find I am worth the time to engage in conversation. I also appreciate that you noticed and remembered something I said.
And take as much time as you need to formulate your reply. That is a definite advantage of texting and Facebook…extra time before responding.

Brendhain
Now, Jyvlo, have I not always demonstrated your worth of my time every time you initiated conversations?! I stay up till 3:00 am chatting with you all the time! For hours!!! If that is not a demonstration enough for you then I am more than happy to initiate more conversations if that will satiate you!!
I don’t mind at all when someone tells me directly what their needs are. I actually like it! If it is reasonable for me to do and it will be of help then why wouldn’t I do it!! And I listen and remember EVERY WORD YOU SAY!! 😉

Jyvlo Yipistage
You HAVE stayed up late talking to me on more than one occasion. Thanks for pointing out to me that you ARE demonstrating interest to me just maybe not in the way I would choose. My ONLY fault (HA!!!) is that I tend to overlook things like that…Not a good quality for successful relationships!!!
EVERY WORD?? ARRRGGGHHHHH!!!! That’s scary….

Brendhain
I can’t access ALL of it on demand but I can access tons of it— Word for Word!! With others, you can remind me of it by quoting back something you said and 95% of the time I will be able to finish your quote, word for word, and continue with what I said  after you and then back to what you said etc. and most of the time I can back it up to before you said what you said and the whole conversational context of it all!! Some people find that SO ANNOYING!! Control freaks go nuts with me!!

Jyvlo Yipistage
Well, I can access most of it too since it’s all been via Facebook! lol
But I can’t quote you..I tend to focus on the overall message. I’m a ‘big picture’ kind of person generally.
I could quote you if I go back, copy and paste. Now I’m doing that thing that annoys you – multiple short messages…SORRY

Brendhain

The most basic answer to your god question for me is that I know how  god could have made man in a better way. Not a crazed ideal like Apollo!! In that case then clearly Superman powers would be the first thing!!

With a little lean in a good direction then being Human could be a more positive experience for a soul. It makes no sense to me that any loving God would put our innocent souls (at birth or baptism, as one pleases!) to a test. That makes no sense to me. The Old Testament has insight but it is also filled with the insanity of man and a semi-nomadic people (they moved around a lot whether by choice or force).
If the human mind worked a little different then life could be amazing and we could solve these fundamental issues that mankind struggles with through the ages. It is pretty simple.
So from that perspective I sought to understand why God would create and accept a world as we have it,in which the experience of being Any human on the planet is unnecessarily cruel (physical, mental and/ emotional suffering). One solution would be If we knew there was a god because we were born connected to the mind of god and could speak directly to God.  JC as the bible describes (or Muhammad who spoke directly with god) had this insight and made his experience of earth very different from ours. Instead of seeing/looking for signs and reading very confusing and contradictory book(s). The message/book could have been written so much more clearly and leave out the stuff about not wearing two different types of material at one time etc.
To make any sense of the history of the universe, earth, life and mankind (and the condition of their existence today) you have to accept science and evolution as the obvious thing that happened (or a very accurate description of the main elements forming it). Only someone who is unaware/skeptical of the concept of ‘science’ while they type on their computer can ignore this obvious truth!
Also, clearly, god does not reach in and affect the universe. He may have set it in motion and let it do its thing. It can be argued that:  At the beginning of the universe (big bang) is when God set it in motion and it has just run its course ever since.
Not sure Why he made mankind this way, clearly a rational god would not have done it this way without some motivation?! If god is irrational then who cares?! Irrational people are impossible to please so why bother and try? On judgement day your fate would depend more upon his mood than what you did with your life.

Jyvlo Yipistage

So you are suggesting that God should have made superior (if not perfect) humans? If we were superior to our current state (depending on the level of that superiority) then there would be no need for us to have problem-solving capabilities because we would not cause each other problems! All would be good and enjoyable and perfectly BORING! The God I believe in doesn’t put us to a test but simply offers us His love. If He just talked to us all the time in a totally accessible way, we would be completely dependent on Him and lazy and expect him to solve everything for us rather than delving into deep relationships with others as He desires to do with us.

As far as whether or not God reaches in and intervenes in events…I don’t have a strong belief about that one way or the other. It is a question I often ask myself.
And, yes these are complex questions but not questions I haven’t spent lots of time considering.

Brendhain

There is no need to go to an extreme difference from where we are. That was my point with the Superman joke! A small change in our awareness level would make it possible for us to Use our problem solving skills to better understand ourselves and how we work. Not make us perfect! Plus, Jyvlo , even insects need problem solving techniques to survive.

Jyvlo Yipistage
touché – OK fine…higher level problem-solving skills. Also, if we were just a smidgen ‘better’ in this way we would probably be only more painfully aware of our shortcomings and complain that God should have made us just ever so slightly better.
I am not arguing with your logic or the soundness of your positions. They are all very logical. But you still feel there is a piece of the puzzle missing, right?

Brendhain
As to our short coming, I completely disagree! More awareness would bring more understanding and with tht less anxiety about things. We could lose superficialness with it. The more self-aware I am and aware of the similarities between me and everyone else’s experience of being human the more forgiving I am of myself and other people.

The missing piece is the answer. Why would a rational God have chosen this fate for mankind? That is what is missing.
The more ‘aware’ people of the world are compassionate people. The un- or semi- aware people are the ones who cause trouble. We all contribute to the confusion but the zombies totally mess up the place.

Jyvlo Yipistage
Lol! So what is your solution to the human condition? Kill the zombies?

Kidding…But seriously now..while we are ‘playing in this reality’ we are assuming God exists. So would you agree for God to exist and to have created the world and humanity it is a prerequisite that God be more intelligent than us? If so, it follows that God’s understanding of humanity and reality exceeds ours so there is probably a reason we can only partially grasp for things being the way they are. Compassion and self-awareness can lead to action to at least TRY to help others become more self-aware so that fewer zombies exist.

Brendhain
Just because someone is more intelligent than another does not mean that it understands the experience or the mind of another! I have no idea what is going on in a dogs mind or how it experiences life and the senses. Apparently they have no sense of time!
Being Intelligent and being rational are two different things. A rational mind needs a reason or motivation, an irrational mind doesn’t.

Jyvlo Yipistage
We weren’t discussing personal intimate knowledge but rather knowledge of the workings etc – the big picture

Brendhain
I agree on the big picture but an infinitely compassion, as well as, rational mind would not have knowingly created such experiences of reality as we humans experience it. That makes no sense.
For him, the big picture is everything in the universe but not ‘individual reality’. The experience/experience some children have is not rationally acceptable by a compassionate mind.
For me, this means that God would have to be unaware of it when he set things in motion. One could then conclude that he spoke to Moses and sent JC (or spoke thru any profit from any religion)  to try to communicate with us and change the path we are on.
Simple knowledge of how our minds work and how to learn. How to modify negative behavior and thinking. These simple skills, which we are just now discovering due to other things than religion; scientific method-brain science, psychology etc
If he had “spoken” these things to us (or if we were born with these skills) then eventually most people would natural conclude by using their problem solving skills that ‘don’t be a dick’ is a pretty good rule! Most of the 10 Commandments are pretty obvious to any reasonable person., etc.

Jyvlo Yipistage
The traditional creation story is that the perfect world was created which included choice. Poor choices leading to undesirable consequences. If choice was present that means humans were capable of making positive choices… Unfortunately even ‘good’ people make ‘bad’ choices. The cumulative effects of those choices are disease, famine, climate change, drought etc. The ten commandments were a drastic simplification of prior Leviticus laws. And yes they are pretty much common sense. However, I don’t know anyone who has not broken at least one of them.

Brendhain
“Choice” is not a Choice if you are incapable of understanding the consequences. It is just “picking”.
There is no such thing as perfection so of coarse everyone has made “bad” choices or wasn’t thinking and did something “bad”. No rational person would expect themselves to be perfect if they had a real understanding of how their mind works. They would see that the mind and body aren’t a perfect machine. 95% is a very good performance level. To expect 100% would be irrational.
Apparently we make more bad choices than good ones as it is, considering the state of human history and existence.

Jyvlo Yipistage
And humans don’t cause earthquakes or other natural disasters.
So I hear you saying God created an imperfect world where humans are unfairly subjected to pain and circumstances not of their choosing.

Brendhain
Clearly that is the case to anyone who looks around! An unnecessary amount and degree of suffering on this crazy planet he made with earthquakes, floods, droughts — all the great plagued.

Jyvlo Yipistage
So you conclude that if He exists he is irrational and imperfect.

Brendhain
Imperfect is a very vague statement. But that he makes “picks” without full understanding the consequences upon others, Yes. The existence of Suffering is bad enough but to experience suffering is horrible for all humans.
Not irrational  there is too much order in the universe for God to be irrational. If he were irrational then that would explain why he set it in motion this way. But an irrational mind would have ‘magic’ in the world. Things that are impossible to predict and break the Laws of Physics. The only things that break the laws of physics is the human mind and its ability to be creative ideas and perceptions that don’t really exist. It can create realities and ideas that break the laws of physics but these realities don’t exist in the external world. They are held only in the mind.

Jyvlo Yipistage
Like miraculous healings without medical intervention?
So he’s not irrational or you are undecided?

Brendhain

There are no ‘miraculous healings without medical intervention’. These spontaneous healing of all of these diseases are statistically predicted regardless of the presence of religion. A small percentage survive all diseases(general statement). Some people carry the HIV virus but never come down with AIDS and they received no medical treatment. It just always happens that some don’t. No disease is Perfect/flawless. Some people survive even plane crashes!
For me, god must be rational but when he set all of this in motion he clearly didn’t understand what the experience of existence in the human reality and had limited knowledge of the function of this machine called a mind.

When I simulate the possibility that god exists then I give him some shit and point out how obvious it is that if we were all born with simply knowledge of how we work/function and how to train it to work more like how we want it to work then so much suffering would be eliminated.

Jyvlo Yipistage
Why do u talk to someone who doesn’t exist? That’s pretty irrational!!

Brendhain
I don’t know if he exists or not. But let it be known that I talk to my TV, too. I just don’t expect it to talk back to me!!

Jyvlo Yipistage
Heeheehee!

Brendhain
But I only talk with God when I doing this thought experiment. I don’t do it otherwise.

Jyvlo Yipistage
I don’t have answers for all the arguments against the existence of God. The times in my life that I’ve truly questioned everything I go back to the beginning of the universe. Big bang is fine but that doesn’t explain the source of the material FOR the big bang. Despite my bit having scientific logical rational explanations for all of it, I do believe in an intelligent creator who desires most of all to be in intimate relationship with every human being. I don’t have to get you to agree with me in order to be friends. I’m ok with the disagreement. I enjoy the chance to deeply examine what I believe.

Jyvlo Yipistage
*not

Brendhain
I was just answering your question and I wasn’t giving you an argument against God! We were assuming that he Did exist.
There wasn’t material before the big bang. The big bang was a release and conversion of energy into a state we call “matter”. The source of the energy is unknown. Matter is simply vibrations(energy) or converted energy (in a sense), according to physics.
It could have been God who was the source of energy but I see no need for one. But it is interesting to think about if it was a god!

Jyvlo Yipistage
Ok. I thought the big bang stated that there was a singularity and I thought that was matter condensed to its most dense form. Regardless my point is still valid. And yes I think it is interesting to consider whether the source of that was a god.

Brendhain
Before the singularity there was energy. This energy expanded and condensed into  participial of matter, this is the singularity. Before the entry of matter, Time didn’t exist. Hence, our present math breaks down without the dimension of time.

Which ‘point’ do you mean that is still valid?

Jyvlo Yipistage
That there is room on the theory for a source

Brendhain
I said that first, I think? I absolutely agree that there is that possibility! Isn’t that were I started from?! where I stated that I am an Agnostic-Atheist.

Jyvlo Yipistage
Ok. Glad we agree
Just seems u tend more toward atheist
I guess that’s why the discussion has gone that direction to a degree

Brendhain
We were discussing my view as to the nature of God if he is the source.
I didn’t discuss atheism at all?! Except when I said that I don’t believe. But I am balanced with agnosticism in that I know that I don’t know 100% if he does or doesn’t exist. So I am neither more one or the other. They balance each other but due to the atheism(lack of belief) I don’t spend much time factoring god into my moment to moment understanding of the world.
Must sleep now! Good night, Jyvlo. Fun chat!!

Jyvlo Yipistage
Yep. It was good for me, too. I’m going to smoke! Lol! Good night.

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